Jack Sharry: Hello, everyone. So happy you could join us for this week’s special edition of WealthTech on Deck. Over the course of my financial services career, there hasn’t been a more important topic to understand and act on than the demographic shifts that have impacted our world for decades, and continue to do so. Today we’re going to speak with Ken Dychtwald, PhD, who, in my view and many others, is the authority on aging and its ramifications. Ken is a psychologist, gerontologist, and founder of and CEO of Age Wave. Ken and I are going to discuss Age Wave’s most recent study as we look at the data and the facts on the longevity revolution. We’re also, by the way, gonna talk about his new book, I’ll slip that in there as we go. Age Wave is a firm with nearly 40 years of expertise anticipating and understanding the profound implications of the maturing population. The title of it is The New Age of Aging. It’s a Harris Poll survey of over 2000 US adults and includes 900 adults over the age of 50. The study’s results illustrate a dramatic shift in how Americans define old age and envision the possibilities of the later years of life. We’re also going to talk about Ken’s book, Radical Curiosity, but more on that in a moment. So, Ken, welcome back to WealthTech on Deck.

Ken Dychtwald: Great to be here. Good to see you.

Jack Sharry: As always, sir. As I understand in the study, and it just came out yesterday, everywhere we turn in American culture today, we see signs that we’ve entered a new age of aging. So, Ken, tell me all about it. What’s going on here?

Ken Dychtwald: Yeah, it’s hard not to notice. You know, there’s Bruce Springsteen selling out his world tour in like 15 minutes, and he’s 73. And there’s Harrison Ford back as Indiana Jones and Martha Stewart doing the swimsuit cover on Sports Illustrated. And if somebody had a financial concern, and you could get to sit next to Warren Buffett for a few minutes, you’d take that opportunity, not withstanding the fact that he’s 92. I noticed last year, I went to see Top Gun and Tom Cruise was 59 when he was kind of starring in that movie. And I look back when Cocoon was done, Wilford Brimley, the little old man in that movie was 49 when they filmed that movie. So what’s happening all around us is that because we’re having fewer kids, because people are living longer, and because of the migration of the baby boom generation from youth to middlescent and then maturity, what we’re seeing is the center of gravity of the world, of America specifically in this study, is shifting and it’s creating all sorts of changes. So whether you’re in building houses, or whether you’re thinking about creating a movie, or whether you’re in the travel business, and you realize the boomers are going to have 4 trillion hours of free time on their hands in the next 20 years, or whether you’re in digital technology, and particularly if you’re in financial services, helping people figure out how they’re going to fund their long lives with a new mentality about who they want to be and a radically different point of view about retirement and longevity than we’ve ever seen before.

Jack Sharry: That’s great. I love it. So let’s just talk a little bit about the study itself. You cover a lot of ground, you have some key takeaways, I’d love to hear what those are. And as importantly, not only what you take away from it, but what do we as professionals, the people that listen to this podcast or financial services leaders, and folks that are immersed in trying to figure out how to serve this population. What are your suggestions? What do we do about it?

Ken Dychtwald: Yeah, and from my point of view, the need to help people make sense of how to fund a long life has never been more robust, and there probably has never been a better time to be in the financial services sector. But if you’re thinking that people are thinking about their future and their longevity the way their grandparents did, you’re going to get it all wrong. For example, we asked people, when do you think the best time in your life was or is? And, amazingly, older adults, people over 65, 71% said the best time my life is right now or in front of me. Then we ask people, this whole thing about the fountain of youth, what’s more important, being youthful or useful? And over 80% of the population responded being useful is more important than anything. So having purpose, having meaning, doing something of importance in your community, in your church, in your family, is what people are thinking about. And 60% of the population said they want to work in retirement. And, you know, 10 years ago that might have been a hard struggle because of the fact that, you know, we didn’t have a lot of need for workers. But now with the unemployment level so low, there’s gonna be a demand for that 50, 60, 70 year old who’s got some talent and some interest and some skills to share, all of which are gonna have to be factored into people’s financial planning. On top of that, we saw in our study, that there are some concerns. One of them is purpose, people don’t know who to talk to about who they can be next, what they want to do with their lives going forward. And it’s sort of bubbling under the surface in everybody’s client base. But unless you ask, if you simply assume, “Oh, you’re gonna stop working, and then you know, relax,” you’re gonna get it wrong, people are viewing this as a whole new chapter in life. And they really like some help thinking about or being guided to a book, an article, a TV show, a role model for what they can be doing going forward. Second, people don’t want to grow old sick. And here’s some seriously bad news for the United States. We spend more money per capita on health care than any country in the world. But there are 39 countries in the world that live longer than we do. And then if you look at health span, which is how many of our years are we vital and active and productive? We don’t do so well, we’re only 60th in the world. So we’ve got to do a better job of matching health spans to lifespan. Third, we’ve still got a lot of ageism in this country. People are kind of embarrassed about their age, or they, you know, they think that they ought to be young. You know, Oprah is 69 and nobody’s going to tell her that she ought to be something different than she is. So we’re gonna see ageism start to dissolve. And last, funding, more than three quarters of the US population aren’t really sure what they’re going to need financially to go the distance. And man, oh man, that’s a serious challenge, particularly for women who live about five to six years longer than men. So the financial services community has got to kind of snap out of it. It’s not just about being an economist or knowing about stocks and bonds, it’s knowing about what’s in people’s hearts, and realizing that you have the potential to save people’s lives. So you’re not just there to balance their accounts, you’re there to help them dream their future and then make sure they’ve got the funding strategies and the changes they may need to make in place so that they can live well throughout their years.

Jack Sharry: So you and I have talked about this before, Ken, and I think we, we sing from the same hymnal from the standpoint that, at this part, I may be taking a bit of a stretch, I’m not sure, we’ll see… But of all the things you just described, all of them are fundamentally important, but maybe the most important is purpose, I think. And if you have your purpose straight, and this is what I find just in my, as I talk to friends, you and I are of a vintage, we fit into the category of which you speak. And when I’m sitting on my back porch in Vermont, and we’re watching the Mad River flow by, I’m having a drink with a friend, and we talk about life. Here’s what we talk about. We talk about how we’re volunteering, how we’re contributing, how we’re finding purpose in our lives. We talk about our families, talk about our kids and grandkids and how that’s going. We talk a little bit about retirement, they know I’m in the business, they asked me a few questions, but to a large degree, they seem, at least the ones I talk to, and these are all generally people that are pretty successful. You know, they’re attentive, they’re doing their job, but maybe for our audience, if that’s the mindset, if that’s how people are thinking, what’s your advice on how to deal with them, because I know for me, the financial advisors I see or work with, they don’t get it, you know, they just don’t get it. And I just sort of take care of things on my own, if you will, but work through them more for administrative purposes. My point of all that is, talk about how purpose fits in and how advisors and the firms that supported advisors, how they can do a better job of supporting that client that’s over 65 and looking at a much longer and productive and purposeful life.

Ken Dychtwald: Yeah, I’m right with you. First, let me set a context for this. And this is gonna sound inconceivable. But throughout 99% of human history, the average life expectancy was under 18. So back centuries ago, couples didn’t say, “Gee, honey, what would you like to do? Who can we be in retirement?” Because you likely were not going to live that long. Now, there have always been 60 and 80 and 90 year olds, but not many. Life was short. Now there’s a revolution taking place. And it’s not only that we’re living longer, but people watched their moms and dads and thought, you know, I don’t want to retire that way. Or they see an older brother or sister struggling. And this idea of purpose is, I need to put my psychologist cap on for this one. Most financial professionals have not really taken any training or gone to a conference or studied up on purpose. And, is it the same purpose when you’re 64 that you’re considering, that you did when you were 24? Probably not. You’re a grown up now, you might be an empty nester, you know a little bit more about life, you got some buds of wisdom, you’re starting to think a little more deeply. By the way, we saw in our study, and I do want to say that the study, The New Age of Aging, is available totally for free. And it can be found on our website, which is just agewave.com, The New Age of Aging. People are discovering now, you know, when my grandparents turned 60 or 65, they weren’t thinking about what their new purpose was going to be. They were happy to be alive. They thought they’d have a few more years to go before their batteries were out. Now we look around and we see, wait a minute, the Vogue models have just had a… supermodels just had a 33 year reunion on the cover. Wait a minute, Smokey Robinson just dropped an album at 83? You know, wait a minute, Helen Mirren is kind of a superstar in her late 70s. And, and the other examples we mentioned earlier. People are beginning to realize that maybe there’s time to go back to school. Or if you’re widowed or divorced, maybe you can fall in love again. And this idea of contribution, we found that the last decade, the average retiree watched 47 hours of television a week, which is not good for anybody’s soul, and surely it’s not good for the community. So exactly as you’re saying, Jack, people, not only 60 and 65 year olds, 40 and 45 year olds are wondering, when they get a little bit older, will they have an opportunity to go back to music school and learn how to play the guitar? Or will they have an opportunity to learn a foreign language? Or will they get more involved in their church or synagogue or mosque? Or will they maybe find their true nature and their true purpose in life. David Brooks, the journalist, a few years ago gave a talk that really got my attention. He said at the end of your life, you’re gonna have two resumes. The first is your CV, you know, like, what did you do? What was your title? How much money do you make? How big was your house? And nobody’s gonna care about that. He said your second resume is going to be your eulogy resume. And that’s going to be who you were as a person, and what you gave to the world. And that’s what people are going to talk about. And if you’re thinking about that, when you’re younger, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, maybe you ought to make some moves along the way to try to establish a purpose that’s more gratifying, more nourishing, allows you to be a better version of yourself. And you made another point that I’m gonna double down on here. A lot of financial advisors got in the business to be insurance agents or stockbrokers. And God bless them. That’s a great service. It’s a great career. But now people are wanting a more holistic advisor. You know, we’ve done work for the last number of years with the wonderful folks at Edward Jones. And they’ve crafted a whole holistic strategy that they’re now pushing out through the field to teach people how to focus on not only finances, but purpose, and health, and family as well. And that kind of more holistic approach to serving clients’ needs, I think is the way of the future. And that’s what people are demanding and asking for, and the boomers are not going to settle for anything less.

Jack Sharry: So I’m going to shift gears a little bit and, consistent with what we’re talking about here. We’re birds of a feather in terms of what you’re saying, I couldn’t agree with you more. And that is that you have a book that’s come out, Radical Curiosity. And one of the things that I’ve found and a huge proponent of, in fact I teach college level and MBA level course in listening, and that’s being curious. You came out with a book and I’d love to talk about that. We’ll go back and forth with the survey from here. But I’m curious how this fits in, because I have a hunch it fits in pretty importantly. The title of the book is Radical Curiosity. So tell us about the book. Tell us how that fits in. Because they have everything to do with listening. I’m quite sure.

Ken Dychtwald: Yeah, let me make two points about it. First, when my dad passed away, almost a decade ago, I started doing some homework on the idea of inheritance and legacy. And we asked a question in this brand new survey, just this week, we asked what’s more important as leaving a legacy, your real estate and your money? You know, that’s what the financial community would lead us to believe. But people said “No, no, no, no, no, no.” Over 80% said, what’s far more important are your life lessons. What did you learn in this life? What are the stories that made your life different? You don’t have to be a superstar. But you know, how did you meet the love of your life? Or why did you decide to do what you’re doing? What matters to you? Do you believe in God? You know, the important questions. And so I decided that I would make an attempt to write a memoir. And, you know, most people know I’ve written 19 books now. I tend to write books about phenomena. So there’s the Age Wave and there is as Healthy Aging, and there’s Workforce Crisis, but I’ve really never gone down inside and shared my own personal stories. And I’ve had a lucky break, Jack, a little bit like you. When you write books, or you give speeches, you get to meet other authors and folks giving speeches. So along the way, along my career, you know, I got trained in feminism by Betty Friedan. Nelson Mandela taught me about leadership. I got to have a private discussion with Ronald Reagan about what he thought makes for a great American. I worked with Jimmy Carter on his book, Virtues of Aging. And in my memoir, are the stories of my encounters with all these extraordinary people and the lessons that I had the benefit of learning from them. So I will tell you, too, that there’s a little bit of nuttiness when you do a memoir. When you write a book about a phenomenon, if people agree or don’t agree, well, you can live with that.

Jack Sharry: Sure.

Ken Dychtwald: But when you write a personal book, and my intention initially was just so that my kids and one day grandkids would have the stories from my life, my legacy. But as the book is coming out, a revised version, all of a sudden, you start thinking, wow, what if people don’t like me, you know. And I hope that folks take a look at it, and see some lessons that are of value, and maybe even help shape your own sense of purpose. Now, keep in mind that I’m the guy that started working in the field of aging when he was 24. That was 49 years ago. So I was just a kid talking about what grownups thought and felt. I’m now 73. And so one of the benefits of this book is that I get to share my own personal stories and fears and experiences of growing older and what I’ve learned along the way.

Jack Sharry: Yeah. So, there’s two aspects to the storytelling you’re describing, the most obvious of which is that it’s personal. But maybe just in a more generic sense, there’s the listening and then there’s the telling. And so the book I wrote is about that, it’s about listening deeply, listening well, which is, I know you do that, that’s research. So you, you go deep. So I know that and I’d love to hear more about that. And then just the power of storytelling, because it’s not only in a book or in a speech, you give wonderful speeches I’ve seen many over the years. Talk about that dynamic of having listened well, having gotten people where they’re at, by the way, this reflects on your study as well, in terms of if you listen well, in this new age, where purpose is far more important than the money, so to speak. But in other words, having a purpose, purpose driven life, as you listen well and then you tell stories, so you can help people see the light toward whatever is important to them while achieving whatever is their life’s mission. So talk a little about that dynamic, because I know you study this closely and live it.

Ken Dychtwald: Yeah, thanks for even asking. You know, it circles around the word curiosity a lot. You know, we see books written about abundance and about success and about wealth and being an influencer. And I don’t think we give enough attention to curiosity, you know, asking questions, learning from others. In our study, we asked people over 65, how important was curiosity? And 97%, said, It’s the essence to continuing to stay modern and youthful and vibrant, continuing to learn and continuing to grow. In fact, I think we ought to break down the limits in colleges, where they’re overwhelmingly focused on just letting young people be curious and learn new things. I think we ought to be learning throughout our lives. And by the way, I think that’s one of the things that people want from their financial advisors. They want you to be curious about them. If you don’t ask, how are your kids doing, you may not know that there’s a special needs child in the family. If you don’t ask, are you caregiving a family member, you may not realize they’re supporting a brother or sister or a mom or dad. If you don’t ask them, who do you want to be next, you may be missing the entire story. You know, and I think that curiosity, and the willingness to keep learning is sort of the core of the message. And hence we titled the book Radical Curiosity: My Life on the Age Wave. And throughout it, you’ll see examples and I wasn’t that smart when I was younger, I’m getting a little bit smarter now, still got a ways to go. I give myself a couple of points for going up to Bucky Fuller, and asked him, “What do you think you’re doing with your life?” And, you know, going up to some of the world’s leaders, Barack Obama and say, you know, “What’s it like to try to run a country?” By being curious, some people pay you back with smart answers, and I’ve tried to share many of those in my memoir.

Jack Sharry: So I’m gonna come back to the story part, but I’m gonna back up for a moment and dig in a little bit more on this curiosity thing. So this class I’ve been teaching for the past, I think it’s eight or nine years at Babson College, it’s a class on listening and storytelling, that’s basically what it is. It’s under their sales and marketing, apparently the most popular class they offer along those lines, and it’s a school for entrepreneurs. So what can be more important than being curious if you want to be an entrepreneur when you grew up? So there’s kids from all over the world, they have a global population in terms of the students that are there. What’s fascinating about, they read the book as a homework assignment, and then what we do in the class is they ask questions, and it’s an exercise and listening and storytelling. And what’s interesting is, it’s like the first time anyone has ever provided instruction in listening. It’s like a new thing. And I keep finding in my day to day job, anyone that follows the stuff I write and talk about on podcasts, it’s all about listening, as far as I’m concerned. And I know you do that so well. But if you talk about how you take that listening, and you’re also a master at then storytelling around that, to make that come alive, make that sing, so people can get what you’re talking about. But talk about that dynamic because I watch you, have watched you over the years do that so well. Listen well, and then tell stories that illuminate and enliven people as they try to become better people.

Ken Dychtwald: Let me try to relate it to your listenership. So I think you’re spot on. Knowing how to listen, and most people what they’re doing is not listening, they’re just pausing so that they can take a second before they say what they want to say.

Jack Sharry: The way I refer to it, Ken, is they’re waiting for their turn to talk and then formulating what it is they want to say.

Ken Dychtwald: But really hearing what another person is struggling with or feeling or dreaming of is an art. And I get you know, I’ve been in the business of storytelling and giving speeches now for a half a century. But I get coached every week. I feel like I’m still trying to learn how to do it better and better and better, and how to tell a great story, how to give a great example. So here’s an example. If I’m a financial advisor, I may not think of myself as a storyteller or a listener, I may just think of myself as someone who’s managing your finances and then when we talk, I tell you how we’re doing relative to the market. Well, maybe I’d be better off asking you some questions. Maybe I’d be better off giving you an example of someone you’ve worked with, whose life turned out better because of a move they made, or a change they made in their portfolio. Maybe I could talk to you about some of the hazards ahead so that as you take the journey of your life, you can get the benefit of my story and what I’ve learned and make some moves along the way so as to avoid the hazards. I think listening, curiosity, storytelling, and giving great examples are going to become the fundamental new range of skills. Now, I know also, that you’re a tech wizard. So I’m not saying that this is going to replace technology, I’m saying it’s going to go hand in hand, it’s gonna be like dancing partners, knowing how to be excellent human, and knowing how to use technology to benefit the work you do together.

Jack Sharry: Some of my colleagues at LifeYield would argue that I’m not so much a tech wizard as I’m a pretty good listener and then I point to people that are really smart about that stuff to get it done. But that’s a whole ‘nother topic. So, but I appreciate your comment. So as we look to wrap up, one of the things I like to ask, and I’m involved with a not for profit board I mentioned to you offline here. Actually, we’re in the process of creating the largest land conservation place, it’ll amount to 3000 acres, 10-15 minutes from Boston. So we’re setting aside land in perpetuity. And the founder is a gentleman by the name of Robert Sever Hale, he founded the place over 100 years ago. And his favorite question, in any important discussion: So what are we going to do about it? So my question to you, Ken, for our listeners as a way to close out our discussion, what’s your advice? And I know we’ve covered a lot around listening and around storytelling. And then of course, the survey itself. We’re understanding where the consumer is today. What’s your recommendation? We as professionals, we as financial services folks, what should we do about it?

Ken Dychtwald: So, I initially went to school to be a physicist. And I was fascinated by the Apollo missions, because they’re the most planned expeditions in scientific history. Yet, 97% of the time, the rockets were off course. And so the Apollo missions were a continual exercise in course correcting. So to answer your question, I’d say for the financial community, this is a fabulous time. Why so many people are scratching their head and they’re saying, I’m not sure I know what I’m doing. I don’t know how much money I’m going to need. I don’t know how inflation is going to affect me. I’m supporting my adult kids, I don’t know how to turn that off. I’m going to be caregiving a loved one. I need a financial advisor who’s interested in me. So I think that the financial community has got to learn, the kinds of things we’re talking about here, this is not just entertainment, this is a shot across the bow. We’ve got to learn how to save people’s lives, we’ve got to learn how to explain things in a way that they can understand without using, you know, financial jargon that nobody understands. And we’ve got to learn how to let people know we care. Because at the end of the day, we’re going through a rocky time in history, and people want someone in their corner who they know has got their back. And I would say that there is growth opportunities for the financial professional who can tune in that way, unlike anything we’ve ever seen.

Jack Sharry: I’m with you. So, Ken, as always, just a real pleasure to speak with you about these very important issues. We, in our industry, get a little bit caught up sometimes in the bits and bytes and details. But this is the, I think, the important stuff, the human stuff. That’s stuff that really makes a difference. So thank you, as always for sharing that. Now, you’ve been on the podcast more than a few times, and always with interesting and wonderful stuff to offer. And I also know you lead an exciting life. So here goes my favorite question, always: What do you do, or what have you done recently, I should say… What have you done recently that you are particularly excited or passionate about, that people might find interesting or surprising? I know you, when we last connected, you were on your way back from Paris and had a mini break from reality. So what’s the latest? What you’ve been up to, and having fun and passionate about doing?

Ken Dychtwald: You know, I’m gonna say that one of the most interesting things going on for me right now is that my wife of 40 years and by the way, just to let you know how dingy I am, when I married my wife in 1983 on Thanksgiving, I said to her, this was so much fun, I’d love to marry you every year. And so we’ve been married every year in a different location with a different religion. So, you know, we celebrate holidays, every year, we celebrate birthdays every year, why not celebrate our loving relationships or even the celebration of a friendship. But my wife is finishing her fourth book, which is on Ageless Aging for women, because women will be living longer than men. And she’s put together a kind of a brilliant exercise on how to grow old well, and how to get the benefits of a longer life but also how to make sure your body doesn’t fall apart, and your money doesn’t fall apart. And I’ve been having a good time being kind of her support staff on this new book. So being, being in a supportive role to my wife’s a pioneering thinking has been a fun new stage in my life.

Jack Sharry: Good for you. Good for you. No surprise. So, Ken, thanks. This has been wonderful. Appreciate all of your thoughts, perspective, et al. For audience, if you’ve enjoyed our podcast, please rate, review, subscribe, and share what we’re doing here at WealthTech on Deck. We’re available wherever you get your podcasts. Ken, once again, thanks so much. I really appreciate it.

Ken Dychtwald: Thank you so much, much appreciate being on your show and being able to speak my mind.